Talking ‘Straight vs. Gay’ With New York’s Gay Curator of Straight Porn

Casey Scott and I are dishing about porn over burgers at Astoria’s famous Neptune Diner. The diner, which boasts a giant sign proclaiming “Number 1 Diner in New York City according to the NY Daily News,” is the perfect place for our gab session because despite the polished, clean fixtures, it’s a charming throwback to an old-school New York that both Casey and I long to return to. Casey especially. The handsome 30-year-old porn buff has been making a name for himself as the creator and chief curator of New York’s In The Flesh film series, which takes place at the Anthology Film Archives in the East Village. In The Flesh showcases important straight porn films mostly from the seventies and early eighties. The films are screened on film — no easy feat to pull off as most porn films are woefully under-preserved — and so Casey has to be constantly researching and chasing down leads to keep his ship afloat.

His film choices are primarily classics and under-seen curios. The March edition showcased “Porn Noir” focusing on dark mystery and horror XXX-ers like Expose Me, Lovely, Corruption, and The Double Exposure of Holly. June’s edition of the series will feature a special “Gay Pride” theme, showcasing straight porn films made by gay men working in the industry. As Casey’s an accomplished expert on the subject, I sat down with him to discuss the blurred boundaries between the straight and gay porn worlds, whether he actually gets turned on by straight porn, and how the porn of yesteryear really measures up against today’s offerings.

Adam: Casey, when did you first start getting into porn, and at what point did you realize it was more than just a passing obsession.

My generation really started exploring pornography through the internet, and that’s how I found and got really into Al Parker and Casey Donovan, the big names from the 1970s and the 80s. I’ve always been into film and I always notice directors, because if I like a film I’ll watch more by the director. I got into the straight porn stuff because I was into exploitation films, drive-in-movies, and a lot of those directors did porn. But the real catalyst for exploring straight adult movies in a more in-depth way was The Devil In Miss Jones. I got the poster art tattooed on my arm, because it’s that important to me. Gerard Damiano is my favorite director. Then with those films came my favorite actors. The genre in general is a gift that keeps on giving, especially because it’s a genre that’s not really well documented. A lot of research is required to understand everybody involved and the stories behind how it all worked.
heavyequipment
What was the first gay porn you ever saw?

Heavy Equipment in 3-D.

I’ve always wanted to see it.

It’s really not very good. But that’s how I got obsessed with Roger, the star of that movie. I love him. He’s still my favorite, that’s another one — gay for pay. But he sold it and was super hot. I don’t care if he was straight.

He’s great in A Night at the Adonis. [pictured above left]

Is he in that? I know he’s in Hot House and Sex Magic.

Pretty sure.

I know Malo is, and Malo’s the guy from Cruising who is the first murder victim, which I just discovered. I can’t find him and I’m hoping he’s still alive. And if he’s not I can’t find any evidence he’s not. I would say the movie that really got me looking at porn in a more serious way was the Joe Gage Working Man Trilogy. I remember I very discreetly bought Heavy Equipment online and then it was suggested that I purchase the Working Man Trilogy with it and I had some money so I said okay. Heavy Equipment was okay. But the Working Man Trilogy, I was just like, my god. Wow. Like a lot of guys I think Joe Gage was the eye-opener. Wow, somebody’s really doing something interesting with this genre and not just making beat-off material. It was obviously a clear auteur’s vision. He knew what he wanted to capture, and is really good at capturing tension and atmosphere and characters. From there it was like — Joe Gage, Steve Scott, Hand in Hand, PM, everything I could get my hands on. Then the French stuff, I really like Cadinot.

This is Roger, from 'Heavy Equipment'
This is Roger, from ‘Heavy Equipment’

You curate straight porn now for your series. Do you find straight porn a turn on?

I do. Yeah. You know. I’d be lying if I said that I didn’t. They’re obviously geared towards a straight audience but I think that there’s something about when something sexual is captured really well. Well photographed, well edited, there’s frenzy to it, and really good chemistry. It’s a turn on. I mean it helps when the guy’s attractive, obviously, from my point of view. There are women I love to watch because they have a real presence, and just sort of exude sexuality. That’s something I admire in men and women. It took a while for me to come to terms with that. Like is this okay if I’m gay that I’m turned on by these straight porn films, and some of these women are turn-ons? But yeah. I definitely do.

Are there missing films that you’re looking for?

Well there’s one. My holy grail is a straight movie called Big Thumbs, which was a movie that came out in 1977, made by gay men in the Broadway world, and it’s registered to the copyright office, they have a print. It’s never turned up on home video ever. And it’s impossible to find. I don’t know anyone who’s had a print. The people who owned the copyright to it are dead, they all died of AIDS or after AIDS. The composer died five or six years ago and he was the last surviving person who worked on the movie. That is a major orphaned work. I don’t even know where to go to retrieve that movie. That’s a big one. The gay porn movie everyone wants to find is Him, which is the X-Rated Jesus story.

I wrote about that years ago for BUTT.

Yeah. The only information that’s available, there aren’t enough clues to go on. And pseudonyms were much more common in gay films than straight films, because of obvious social stigmas.

It seems so weird that something like that could be lost for so long, because even with AIDS there just has to be somebody who knows the real story or knows who made it or had a friend who made it. It’s New York, anything theoretically should be possible. It’s only been thirty years.

What’s the other one that has the interesting backstory — Centurions of Rome, which was funded by a Brinks robbery, and when they found out that’s where the money went to producing this lavish, X-Rated Caligula for gay men, I think Lloyds of London technically repossessed the movie. I don’t know how it can legally be available anymore but it is.

George Payne in 'Centurions of Rome'
George Payne in ‘Centurions of Rome’

Bijou puts it out right?

Yeah. All the crew members except for the director were straight. That’s how that story came about years later. It was photographed by Larry Revene, who’s a regular at our series, edited by Carter Stevens who is straight, and all the other crew members were straight. Word got out because of all the straight crew members. And that’s the frustrating thing. One of the companies I love is PM Productions and they were based here and did a lot films — John Amero directed some, Joe Gage did some movies for them as Mac Larson and their history is just, poof, it’s gone. I don’t know what happened to the guy. I’m trying to research that company, but it’s just impossible. There’s no record because when these gay men died — who gets their stuff? That’s the problem.

People just threw them out.

Or if they had partners, the partners died too. Or maybe they weren’t in touch with their family. Chuck Vincent is a great case. We’re showing two of his films in June and a lot of those films, the negatives are gone because Chuck wasn’t all that good a businessman. He was a good director and an artist but not a good businessman, so he would double-sell movies. So his negatives may have been given to people who had a limited licensing agreement, but he sold the movies in perpetuity to Distripix, but they don’t have the negatives. Where do you go from there? He’s gone, his lover’s gone, I can’t find any family members of Chuck who would have had any paperwork from him. It’s frustrating. It’s another factor in the loss of a generation of gay men. There’s so many missing pieces because these people left us so suddenly.

The great Al Parker.
The great Al Parker.

How much crossover was there between the straight and gay porn worlds in the seventies and eighties? You talked about Centurions of Rome which was made by straight people, where did that come from?

Well that was around even at the beginning. If you see The Back Row, it starred George Payne, and he only did a few other gay films but he was a major straight porn star. Marc Stevens was bisexual and he was in gay films but also in The Devil in Miss Jones. Exploring the very fluid nature of sexuality was very big in the early to mid-70’s and as you went into the late 70’s and early 80s it wasn’t as prevalent. There are some examples like Peter North. He started out in gay porn as Matt Ramsey and went into straight porn as Peter North and he tries to pretend the whole gay thing didn’t happen but it’s all there on video. Behind the scenes there aren’t that many examples I can think of where there were crew members who would work both. Larry Revene would because he didn’t consider the gay films slumming because all the things he shot looked great. He didn’t have to be attracted to what he was filming. He was a cameraman who cared about the lighting and that what he was filming looked great. Ron Dorfman was another photographer who did a lot of low-budget gay stuff and he was straight. It wasn’t that common in technicians but it was very common in actors. I can’t think of that many actors that didn’t show up in some gay stuff. Even Jamie Gillis who was major —

Jamie Gillis did gay porn?

Maybe two or three. In Boynapped, I think he receives oral, and he fists someone but it’s a stand-in. It’s not really his hand. He did another film called 3 Sex Crazed Banditos but that’s missing.

Were the straight porn actors put in these movies out of necessity or did they just do it for a paycheck?

With Jamie he was just very experimental.

Because our Sword commenters go absolutely nuts over it — how dare these straight people come in and be in this industry — but what you’re saying is it was there from the beginning of gay porn.

Of course. AMG Models — those were all straight guys!

I feel like if you get a guy to do something gay, that should be a turn on. I just wish they would be more open and say they were straight!

I’ve been fooled by guys who claim in interviews they are straight and bi and leaning towards women, but if their performances are good enough and the fantasy is sold, that’s all that matters.

I talk to a lot of porn people now, but when I consume porn, I couldn’t give a shit what they do in their real life, it’s all about what they do onscreen. I get the idea of why that’s a turn off to people when you see certain people not engaging, but that’s just somebody who’s not enjoying themselves and are giving a lousy performance. You know, when straight guys are obvious because they’re just getting blowjobs and laying there. You just want somebody to be into it.

That’s one of the things I can’t stand is seeing bad head. Gay men give bad head too, but most of the guys giving bad head are the gay-for-pay guys. I really wish that the companies wouldn’t go by this formula like, “You suck, then you suck, and then…” it doesn’t have to go like that. A guy who’s going to do a bad job at giving a blowjob, that’s going to ruin the fantasy of your scene, so don’t include it. I think editing is really important in porn. I know a lot of people don’t agree with that, they think it ruins the illusion — “If it’s not real, it’s not real.” But editing is important. There’s so much that needs to be edited out. I hate when I see a guy who’s bottoming and he’s limp the whole time. In editing you can frame that out. But at this point it’s just such a glut of product, they’re just trying to get it out to you, they don’t care. Men.com is trying to get a scene out every day and it’s often like that. I don’t even know if it’s like 50-50 I think it’s more like 40-60, good to bad.

Men.com always has good premises. Like Stepfather’s Secret that premise is hot, but then when you go to watch it there’s so much talking. “Let’s play an endless game of Truth or Dare.” “When did you hook up with our stepfather?” They’re not good at that talking.

Johnny Rapid is a mess anyway. I cannot explain his popularity.

stepfathers-secret

No! He’s so hot. He’s gorgeous.

Nasty white trash guy. Looks like they just picked him off the street.

No, his ass is so beautiful.

He looks like he got into a fight. His teeth and his hair’s always messed up.

Imperfection is beautiful to me.

Christopher Rage had a lot of people like that. But his movies were hot. I just don’t get the whole Johnny Rapid thing. He’s another one where it’s like, they shouldn’t show him giving oral because he’s terrible at it. I mean, I think he just won some award for like Best Performer of the Year by somebody — it might have been the Grabbys for all I know — and I was talking with a friend who was trying to explain Johnny Rapid and he was like, “Here’s this guy who’s straight and has a kid and he’s the industry’s top power bottom now.” I said, “But that was Kurt Wild five years ago. It’s just history repeating itself, it’s not that interesting.” And Bill Henson in the 80’s was the same thing. He was the power bottom of the 80s and was married and had a kid. It’s interesting how the industry will keep repeating himself by casting the same types of guys in the same types of roles with the same kind of off-screen histories.

Who do you think is making really enduring quality gay porn? Because you’re somebody with the knowledge to actually can give it a historical perspective.

I like for the most part what CockyBoys is doing. I think that their type of guy is very similar, cookie-cutter and I feel like they need a little versatility in there. I like Sean Cody’s stuff a lot. They’re very controversial for a variety of different reasons and they’re another one where the guys are very similar, but they do something with the editing and cinematography and the right selection of guys and it works really well. I think Titan is still really consistent in terms of making feature videos. I love DG Media which is Ray Dragon and Joe Gage’s videos. They do really great stuff. They need a better editor because the movies are really long. They can be pared down. If you think about Joe’s best movie Closed Set, it’s only like 80 minutes.

theinternIt’s his best movie. It’s amazing.

Yeah. He’s become like the David Lean of gay porn. David Lean used to make these very tight, compact movies in the early part of his career and then he started to do Lawrence of Arabia and Dr. Zhivago, these four hour epics.

I loved what Gage did for Titan. Arcade at Route 9 is a masterpiece.

I like all the stuff he did there. It was just one good video after the other. He was the best director there. Brian Mills was still there. Jasun Mark was there. He does really good work with Titan. I like him personally.

They’re the only people who put that old-school production value into story and setting and coming up with something that’s really a movie.

I think Raging Stallion tried for a little while. I remember when they poached Tony DiMarco from Lucas and I was kind of excited because Tony DiMarco was doing amazing work for Lucas. He did La Dolce Vita and all the other good story stuff for Lucas. The Intern. That was really good stuff. But then at Raging Stallion I don’t think they knew what to do with him. I don’t think he’s done a story porn for several years now. The last was the two part Western — I forgot what it was called (ed. note: To The Last Man) Raging Stallion is interesting guys but the product isn’t consistent. They need a better editor. There aren’t too many other studios that I’ll always check out what they have because it’s going to be reliable. UK Naked Men used to be really good but I don’t know what happened.

Oh those fabulous Matt Hughes movies blew my mind. Man of The Match is one of the most incredible scenes I’ve ever seen I cum like before they’ve even had their cocks out. Sometimes even a trashy Next Door Male scene will get me off more than other things. They had a scene that with Trystan Bull —

I loved him. He was another one who they didn’t make him do anything he would be bad at.

It was these two young twinks and he was one of their stepdads and they skip school because they’re about to graduate, and he comes in the pool and then goes over to them and makes them hook up with him and at the end they have taped it all so they can blackmail him to do it to them every day. It was so funny and dumb and hot. Do you think there’s room for humor in porn?

Men tries to do that. Randy Blue tries to do that. They’re inconsistent but they’re the only ones who do that. Austin Wolf is one of their guys and he’s one of my very favorites. He’s amazing. I don’t like Tyler Wolf his partner. He’s not very good. I like Austin a lot though. Randy Blue always does a Halloween porn every year, and I think there’s definitely room for it, but I think it’s always been iffy to mix those two, because if it’s a real failure it’s a real failure. But that’s always been the case. It’s interesting you mention that because I’m thinking of movies in the In The Flesh series, we show mostly comedies, like intentional comedies. Two of the movies we’re showing in June are comedies, but they’re both made by gay men who are notorious for their witty sense of humor.

A Night at the Adonis starts with that great scene where Jack Wrangler, who works at a guy’s clothing shop – picks up a guy and the guy says, “What do you do?” and he says, “I’m in Men’s Pants.” I’m a sucker for a good double-entendre.

The way the market’s changed now is that back in the day, if you were shooting on film you would have to draw people to the theater and once you got people through the advertising and title, you got em. If they paid, you got em. You could put whatever you wanted in there. You could have a film like Drive, Jack Deveau’s film with a drag queen villainess. It’s a really funny, campy movie. I don’t think you could make it now because the focus on narration is gone. The market’s just changed so much that there really isn’t that room for experimentation and trying different things. That’s what makes these older movies so interesting. When I interview these directors they’re really like, “These were the independent movies of that decade.” The producers didn’t give a shit what you made as long as it had sex in it so they could sell it. You had horror films, film noir, Blonde Ambition which is the gayest straight porn movie ever made. I don’t know what straight man could possibly get off to that film. It’s not sexy in the least. It’s sexy for gay men but it’s not sexy for women and straight men. A lot of people were experimenting in ways to tell stuff. I’ll always be drawn and really more admiring of older films than I will of contemporary films which isn’t to say that I’ll pooh-pooh contemporary pornography, but it serves a different purpose. I had a conversation with someone who wanted us to show all the Inside movies. Inside Seka, Deep Inside Annie Sprinkle, and Inside Jennifer Wells. I said the difference is that the In The Flesh series is about showing good films. Those films are good pornography but they’re not good films. Contemporary pornography functions fine as pornography but they don’t function as films. Because I’m a big film person I’m always going to focus on film over pornography.

misbehavinOne of the things I wonder is why it seems as if most people in gay porn, with a few exceptions like Jake Jaxson, don’t come to the industry with the knowledge or interest in seeing what came before them in these classic films. There are so many great films that could be remade or stolen from or homaged in so many ways. I get that there’s not a lot of money so there’s not a lot of chances for people to take risks but it’s always astonishing when I’m like you have to see this pioneering movie and someone hasn’t.

In the early period the lack of money wasn’t a hindrance, it was a challenge. If you want to tell that story figure out how to do it with that kind of money. Now it’s like, “It costs too much, let’s just show these two guys fucking.” That’s the same in mainstream films too, where practical special effects are not as embraced as CGI, because CGI you can tell someone what you want and they can create it. Something like Flesh Gordon in 1972, the crew of that movie, the special effects makeup people all went on to win Oscars for their work. They all cared about their work, but they were making penis monsters and stuff. They wanted to create. I don’t know that the people in the industry want to create. Jake Jaxson you can tell came from a film background. And Jasun Mark is the same way, he comes from a film background, but there aren’t that many directors I can think. Tony DiMarco came from a film background. I think that plays a big part of it. You’ll notice that change in the mid-80s when people came in and said, “Well this is video, I don’t have to think about editing or lighting or anything. I can just put out product and make money.” That’s why I have a problem with Men.com because it’s very focused on creating product, it’s not interested in creating something substantial. Some of the editing on those scenes are just ridiculous, I remember one scene — an orgy scene where they actually included a shot of Johnny Rapid yawning — of course because he shoots every day. What editor did not catch that and cut it out? That just shows what kind of excitement is going on onset! It breaks the fantasy. I believe a lot of the editors are straight women, maybe college kids just doing it to get experience. But they’re not doing it with the same drive or experience as people in the seventies and eighties seemed to have. They wouldn’t have put it on a resume but they had the experience and gumption and would say I’m going to work in porno until I make it big.

We’re coming up to June, tell me about your In the Flesh program for June.

blonde ambition1For June I decided to do a gay pride edition so there are three straight films directed by gay men, two by Chuck Vincent and one by the Amero brothers — two gay brothers. Misbehavin’, Roommates, and Blonde Ambition, which is the Amero Brothers. It happened in a roundabout way because we found a print of Roommates that Distripix didn’t know they had. I was like great we can show Roommates, and then I thought it was great we could show Chuck Vincent, and then I remembered we showed the trailer for Blonde Ambition and the audience went nuts. So it made sense to do three straight films by gay directors for gay pride. Someone asked me why I didn’t just do three gay films but finding prints of gay films is rough. I was trying to put together a gay film series partnered with Bijou but I don’t think they know what prints they have and if they do they’re really protective of them. There aren’t any print depots or anything that have gay stuff. I thought this will still appeal to our audience that we’ve generated and bring in new audience members. I feel like if we bring in more gay men people will be more receptive to watching gay porn in that environment and we could do a gay series. I’m really excited about doing these. Chuck Vincent is a genius. The Amero brothers are different kinds of geniuses. Their movies are very distinctive.

I’ll see you there.

Definitely!

_______________

Adam Baran is a filmmaker, blogger, former online editor of Butt Magazine and co-curator of Queer/Art/Film. His short film JACKPOT, about a porn-hunting gay teen, won Best Short Film at the Miami Gay and Lesbian Film Festival, and was recently featured on The Huffington Post, Queerty, and Towleroad, among others. He is a features programmer at Outfest Los Angeles LGBT Film Festival and NewFest in New York. In his spare time, he complains about things to his friends. “Fisting for Compliments”, his weekly musings about the intersection of sex, art, porn, and history, will appear every Monday on TheSword. You can contact him at Adam@TheSword.com and follow him on Twitter at @ABaran999. Check out his previous columns in the Fisting For Compliments Archive.

10 thoughts on “Talking ‘Straight vs. Gay’ With New York’s Gay Curator of Straight Porn”

  1. adultfyi.com is a fake knock off… gene ross old site that donny runs now but some of his editors are really bashing him on his own site… hilarious!

  2. how great to read someone else who has his heart beat on gay porn can’t figure out the success of Johnny Rapid. the guy can’t suck cock to save his soul he makes up for that lack of talent by allowing tops to pound the hell out of his hole tho that gets old quickly. I just scream at the screen when Johnny Rapid is suckin a cock like Tyler Hunt if Hunt is 9 inches Johnny only takes the glans of Hunt’s cock wtf is that? and this is how he goes in gay porn imagine having the gift of Aspen Solomon’s cock in your mouth and u don’t suck it? its such a waste of hiring big cocks that don’t get deep throat which the audience is on the edge of their seats to see that performance the big dick all the way down Johnny’s throat Never happens. and WORSE is telling a guy like JRapid vis twitter along with Billy Sotoro that they are the worst in sucking cock…so they report me to twitter for my opinion and twitter replies that they are not interested in freedom of speech but what is fair…wtf

  3. The only matters to what he has said, first Johnny is a bitch bastards. Second yeah I also love Austin Wolf and lastly he made it clear that even then our industry which supposed to be starred by gay men was plagued by gay4pay leeches and of course with the help of gay traitors and idiots in our communities. Anyway nice interview. I hope next time you do an interview with Gabriel Clark.

  4. Al Parker and his huge dark goods. Kinda you went to bed with a white guy but, surprisingly was fucked by a mandingo…Ah! Old porn movies and all their long gone ” holes and poles “. The kind of stuff that some people would like to watch when doing some needle work in a rocking chair. P.S: I didn’t know G4Ps existed since those days. I thought all performers in the past were good ol’ big marys ( How naif of me ).

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